victorystar: viejachancluda:awokenjirachi:viejachancluda:awokenjirachi:oankali:awokenjirac
victorystar: viejachancluda: awokenjirachi: viejachancluda: awokenjirachi: oankali: awokenjirachi: thecrystaltems: oankali: hoo boy NUS voted on the same day to exclude gay men while including all aces “ace discourse is an insular problem” my ass Any last shred of attachment I felt within the ace community has now evaporated forever Someone help me out here, I’m honestly not seeing how the two are directly related beyond both being resolutions made by NUS??? Or, like…how this is a sign that the ace community is somehow bad??? both of these kinds of politics are both extremely common in mogai circles. additionally the “inclusion” of cishets in the lgbt coalition and safe spaces is entirely due to the ahistoric AVEN politics created by david jay popular in the ace community and mogai circles Okay, I think I understand where people are coming from there then. That being said though, is it really a bad thing having a reserved ace rep on this committee? Like, obviously the resolution regarding gay men is total bullshit and the logic is rather flawed (like, sure, cis white gay men have it the easiest within the community, but they still face discrimination just like anyone else in the community when in society at large, and face issues exclusive to them that need to be considered and addressed), and it does point out an issue with the advocacy method here, but the same thing can be said for just about any advocacy movement, and that shouldn’t be grounds to vilify the group the movement is advocating for. Like, yes, this is pretty problematic. The ace community as a whole, however, shouldn’t be demonized for it. Especially when they’re so delegitimized by everyone, including everyone else in the LGBT community. Not to mention the fact that the logic also sounds a lot like the kind of radical feminism that runs rampant, and the kind of radical feminism that often gets labeled “Tumblr feminism”. i mean, the reason why so many LGBT people have a problem with the ace community is because of the rampant homophobia and transphobia, which is caused by the community being dominated by cishet aces/aros (straight people) so this really is reflective of the current state of the ace community. many gay/bi/trans aces are even starting to denounce the ace community because they’re starting to realize it’s just full of a bunch of straight people who feel entitled to LGBT safe spaces I…guess I can see that? I mean, I personally would hesitate to call cis aces/aros “straight” just because they’re still not fully cishet, though I suppose on some level I can see why one might label them as straight if they would otherwise be straight. And, following that logic, I guess I can understand the issue. But I guess it still kinda bothers me because, at least in my mind, it becomes a statement like, “They’re basically straight so they don’t belong in LGBT spaces,” which is similar to rhetoric used to exclude bisexuals from LGBT spaces, especially when they’re in het (or just het-passing) relationships, and that bugs me because both bisexuals and asexuals have legitimate rights to be included in LGBT spaces. I don’t know. I mean, the friends I have who are ace/aro aren’t like this and don’t talk about this sort of thing (either because they don’t see it happening or else I’m just not paying attention), so I haven’t been exposed to it, which is why I was having trouble understanding it. Thank you for explaining it to me. I can’t say I 100% agree with it, but I definitely understand the logic. “straight” means being -only- attracted to the opposite binary gender, it doesn’t have to include both sexual and romantic attraction. i’m not saying that asexuals shouldn’t create their own spaces, but the LGBT(Q) community is for people who are same-gender attracted and/or non-cis. cishet aces/aros are neither of those things so they literally don’t belong in LGBT spaces lol. obviously the whole “basically straight” rhetoric is different when it’s aimed at bi people because that’s bi erasure and bisexuals are still same-gender attracted even when they’re in het relationships. hmmm you don’t have to thank me i’m not claiming to be an expert on this, but i know that there’s tons of problems with how the ace community and the LGBT community interact with each other …okay, yeah, that’s fair. In my mind I still see there being a difference, but now that I think about it that difference is kinda menial.I just get really defensive whenever that kind of rhetoric is used because I am bisexual and it’s really aggravating to hear it over and over again, so I tend to just decry it whenever I hear it, but yeah, it does apply differently between them.I’m just thanking you because I’ve really never thought about this too much (I tend to form opinions on these things as they’re brought up, and this is the first time it’s been brought up to me) and I appreciate having someone who at least knows what they’re talking about and can help me iron out my thinking. This has definitely been a fruitful discussion for me. :] Actually most of what the other person says here is pulled outta their ass.1) There is nothing in “MOGAI politics” about kicking gay men out of the community. The only thing I can think of this coming from off the top of my head is the arguement that we’re dismissing gay people’s problem because we say that we have similar experiences?? Or that MOGAI hates gay people which only sprung up after it was suggested as an alternative that didn’t put any letter ahead of the others?? MOGAI inherently includes gay men after all since it means “Marginalized Orientations, Gender Alignments, and Intersex”.2) The argument to include “cishet” asexuals and aromantics is because they are specifically targeted and discriminated against for their asexuality and aromanticism, which is not het. They’re not allowed to speak over other LGBT+ people about their experiences or orientations. It’s also not ahistorical to say we’ve always been included because we’ve been part of the bi community for most of our history, even cishet aces from my recent experience. (Also cishet is a trans term refering to people who benefit fully from cisheteronormativity, which “cishet” aces and aros do not by virtue of being ace/aro.)3) The “rampant homophobia and transphobia” is a problem that’s just as bad in all the other communities. That’s no excuse to ignore it in aspec communities, it just pisses me off as a trans person that they use this against us when I could say the same thing about them. We all need to unlearn this shit and you can’t hold it against one community just because you don’t want them in a community they’ve been part of.4) i’ve seen more LGBT+ aspecs denounce exclusionary ideals because exclusionists also target them and have routinely mistreated and denied the experiences of LGBT+ aspecs. This is most likely a false claim just because some aspecs agree with exclus.5) They’re right about the use of straight, since straight trans people are still LGBT+ despite being straight. They just have their own struggles cause by their trans identity. The same can be said for straight aces and aros and is why that alone is no reason to kick out aces and aros.6) The LGBT+ community was not founded to fight homophobia and transphobia. It was founded to fight cisheteronormativity, which is very different. Additionally that only applies to the community we have now. Trans and bi people were excluded from the community for a long time and had to fight for their places like aspecs are heing forced to now. We all have a similar goal, taking down cisheteronormativity.7) The “basically straight” argument is still fucked up when directed at cishet aces because it’s sole purpose is to deny we can be harmed for our asexuality or aromanticism at all. It’s used to tell rape victims who were attacked as a direct result of coming out that they are wrong or their testimonies about being attacked aren’t valid because they’re also straight or to dismiss ace/aro people talking about how we’ve been mistreated by medical professionals. Even if you think they are “basically straight” that doesn’t mean their experiences are because asexuality and aromanticism still affects their lives in ways het people don’t have to deal with. It erases the harm done to people for being aspec.8) As they said, they’re not an expert. As an activist in aspec circles an withing my local community, I can guarantee that the mahority of their arguements are things that exclusionists twisted and spat back out against aspecs. -- source link