kedreeva: the-moon-loves-the-sea:guardian-of-soho:ileolai:aziraphalelookedwretched:#fandom h

kedreeva: the-moon-loves-the-sea: guardian-of-soho: ileolai: aziraphalelookedwretched: #fandom has written off Gabriel as dumb but like #you don’t show up unannounced with a violent enforcer your employee is clearly uncomfortable around and trap him in a room by accident #this is deliberate mob level intimidation #“politely” reminding him exactly what theyre capable of if he steps out of line #and its terrifying #he cant even look at them @ileolai hitting the nail on the head as usual! In addition, Sandalphon is blocking the exit. And he and Gabriel are standing at complete 180 degree points with Aziraphale in the centre. This is a thing I have known sadistic interviewers to do: to deliberately sit (or stand) at such angles to the victim/interviewee that they can never have both interviewers in their eyeline at the same time. To make eye contact with one, you have to lose sight of the other. Normally I’ve seen it done with the two interviewers at 90 degrees, so the interviewee has to keep turning their head. This is even more cruel: Aziraphale has to turn his back on whomever is not speaking. It’s a deliberate tactic to make a victim more awkward and wrong-footed, and in this case, even physically vulnerable. Yep. You’ve articulated what I was trying to get at with ‘’trap’’. You don’t block off the exits like that to have a polite conversation. You do it to threaten somebody. It’s like they took the mob intimidation bit from the original book and turned it into something far more horrifying and with more weight for his character arc, because this is what gangsters do to scare people. imo Gabriel is fairly well aware of whats going on long before the surveillance photos come into it and he just likes watching Aziraphale squirm with anxiety over how much he knows, because he’s not stupid, he’s a sadistic bully.  And Aziraphale is playing the game so well. He tells himself he trusts them but he absolutely doesn’t. He smiles, he nods, he tells them nothing. He has a quick answer for the jibe about the evil smell. He shows zero reaction to their loud comments about pornography (react, and prove you’re more used to humans than to angels? That you find angels embarrassing now? That you know more about earth than the guy who stationed you there?). He’s covering his ass expertly—he knows how to defend himself. He’s watched angels fall. @kedreeva oh NO you’re right. Like don’t get me wrong, I like a good clueless boss as much as the next person. But that’s not Gabriel. Michael asks if Gabriel minds Michael following up through back channels and Gabriel plainly says “there are no back channels, Michael” and it’s not because Gabriel thinks there are no back channels, of course there fucking are, he’s been using them too. But how dare Michael bring them up so baldly. How dare Michael betray the ruse, and to his face like that. They’re the good guys, you know. Select (many) additional comments:@jacquez45​ reply: this is one bit where I wish they’d left in something: in this scene, Crowley has literally snuck out when Gabriel & Sandalphon enter the shop. (In the script book, Aziraphale basically keeps them out of the back room until he sees that Crowley has gotten out, then invites them back.)the reason I wish they’d left this in is that yes, Aziraphale clearly feels the threat in this scene, but he fucking brazens it out anyway, straight-up lying about the Jeffrey Archer books when he knows full well what Sandalphon is actually smelling — the aired scene implies that it might be Crowley, but the scripted one it’s much clearer, and I like the extra layer of courage that the clarity gives Aziraphale.@forineffablereasons​ reply: #NOT TO MENTION THE VERY THINLY VEILED HOMOPHOBIC THREAT  #OF SANDALPHON BEING ASSOCIATED WITH SMITING PEOPLE IN SODOM AND GOMORRAH  #SURE WE CAN CHAT BIBLICAL ACCURACY BUT THE CULTURAL MINDSET IS MEANT TO INFORM HERE  #IN THE CONTEXT OF AZIRAPHALE’S QUEER NARRATIVE? 100% A HOMOPHOBIC THREAT@gomensgay​ reply: and saying “you remember sandalphon?” like sandalphon isn’t one of the four bastards aziraphale has been reporting to regularly for eleven years At Least????That wasn’t “hey, you remember who this random guy is, right?”That was “hey, remember what we can do to you if you step out of line.”Scary shit.@violetfaust​ reply: I’ve been convinced that Gabriel is smarter and even more malicious than he pretends since the watch-through when I realized Gabriel knows Adam is the Antichrist BEFORE he gets to the airfield. Even Crowley doesn’t know Adam’s name (”You, boy, Antichrist–what’s your name?”) and Beelz has no idea which of the kids he is until Crowley wordlessly points him out. But Gabe says, “That one. Adam Young.” The only way he can know is if he’s somehow keeping extremely close watch on Az.Gabriel’s bland “I’m sure there must be some explanation” to those pics of Az and Crowley is not the shock of a being who finds out he’s been betrayed by a trusted employee for at least 400 years. It’s not even the vindication of finding out that an UNtrustworthy employee has in fact been guilty for 400 years. He’s entirely unsurprised and his denial that back channels exist is a tacit approval for Michael to finally bring this out in the open. “Go ahead and do what you want but I didn’t tell you to because I’m the good guy.”Yeah, Gabriel has been waiting for Az to slip up for six thousand years. So why doesn’t he just use his knowledge of the Arrangement against him? Because LOTS of angels and demons have arrangements. Michael has Ligur; Gabe himself has some unnamed downstairs source. If Gabriel punishes Az and/or Crowley and one of them knows about this, the whole system could come crumbling down. (It’s fine to be a hypocrite as long as nobody knows about it.)So he’ll just wait for Az to take that one step too far and to Fall, get chucked out of heaven. But that never happens. And it pisses Gabriel off.@ineffable-endearments​ reply: Oh I absolutely agree. I didn’t even catch that.Some other moments that make me suspicious:Gabriel saying to Aziraphale in the sushi restaurant, “it’s a miracle he hasn’t spotted you yet” about Crowley, when 218 years ago in 1800, Gabriel spied on Crowley and heard him talking very specifically about Aziraphale and his ability to thwart, which I think counts very much as having “spotted” Aziraphale. It’s a deleted scene, but it definitely got far enough to be worth considering.In that same 1800 scene, when Gabriel and Sandalphon show up at the shop, Aziraphale argues that he needs to stay on Earth because Crowley has “been here as long as I have.” Later, when Gabriel comes to tell Aziraphale that Armageddon is starting, Aziraphale reminds him how long he’s been here, and Gabriel responds, “so has Crowley.” These lines - the whole incidents - seem referential to each other.Finally, Gabriel asks Aziraphale, “how was the hellhound?” after Warlock’s birthday party. Theoretically, of course, Aziraphale could have informed the angels that he was planning to attend the party…but we don’t see him or hear any reference to him doing it, and in fact Aziraphale didn’t know himself that there was supposed to be a hellhound until the 11th hour. This looks to me like Gabriel knowing more than he lets on (except in strategic moments like this).All this leads me to believe Heaven knows WAY more than it lets on. I also kind of wonder - if Hell has the same level of knowledge as Heaven, was Crowley chosen as the Antichrist’s deliverer as a punishment, some kind of bizarre torture meant to “test” his “loyalty”? Was Aziraphale’s station on Earth meant to be a punishment that the angels are now unhappy about because he enjoys it?@whispsofwind​ reply: I don’t remember where I read it, but I really liked the theory that being on Earth is a punishment for Aziraphale, but a reward for Crowley.Aziraphale failed in Eden, so being on Earth, basically cut off from most of Heaven, would be a punishment (except he actually loves it, which must frustrate Gabriel to no end).On the other hand Crowley’s stunt in Eden was a major success, and it would make sense that staying on Earth would be a reward. Hell is clearly miserable. Threatening to take that reward away would give Hell yet another tool to blackmail and control Crowley. I don’t think they would have given him the Antichrist if they didn’t trust his abilities, it was too important of a job to use it as a test or a punishment, anyway.Also, from what we saw in the show, I wouldn’t be surprised if Heaven knew a lot more than Hell does. Unlike the book, Heaven is very present, and organized in a cult-like manner. Gabriel really reminds me of a cult-leader, friendly and apparently innocuous on the outside while being actually ruthless. Such a group would have the means and the motive to create a very efficient surveillance system, under the guise to protect the sanctity of Heaven.On the other side, Hell is much more chaotic, ruled through threats and violence. Collaboration is actively discouraged. Fear is encouraged, and I got the impression that powerful demons prefer to terrorize minor demons into obeying instead of actually checking if orders are being carried out (“Do this or I’ll skin you alive” instead of “Do this and I’ll come down later to check you actually did it”). Such an environment isn’t optimal for a good surveillance system, because information will be lost in the chaos, or hidden in fear.You can also see this difference in the way Heaven and Hell contact Aziraphale and Crowley. Hell constantly talks to Crowley through the radio or the telly, basically a constant reminder of “you are never safe, we are always watching and we will hurt you if you make a mistake”. Except that’s really inefficient, and it allows Crowley to hid things under their nose despite being very scared of his superiors. Correct me if I am wrong, but Hell representatives only interact with Crowley in the flesh when he is called to pick Adam up, and when Hastur and Ligur go to murder him. The demons usually keep their distance, which means the information they get may be distorted.Heaven on the other hand? The Archangel Fucking Gabriel goes personally, multiple times, to talk with Aziraphale. In the sushi restaurant, at the park, in the bookshop. He gets into Aziraphale’s personal space all the time, and he usually plays it as friendly interactions. In a lot of instances, he isn’t even trying to scare Aziraphale into compliance, he is emotionally abusing him. It’s not “we are always watching so you should be terrified”, it’s more of a “hey buddy, you see how I really care? I am here and you are really disappointing me, why can’t you do this one thing right?”.Only when he brings Sandalphon the emotional abuse takes a step further into a more threatening territory. Gabriel has a more hands-on approach than his counterpart, and if he asks the same of his underlings he probably gets very precise information.In short, I think Gabriel knows a lot more than Hell on what Crowley and Aziraphale are up to, and would absolutely love to punish Aziraphale, except he can’t because then he would put his own back-channels into jeopardy. So he turns to petty bullying and cruelty under the facade of the Friendly Boss/Family Member.@krakensdottir​ reply: The contrast is fascinating, honestly. “I was reprimanded for performing too many frivolous miracles, got a strongly worded letter from Gabriel” vs. “My lot do not send rude notes” / “Is it my fault they never check up?”Hell is inefficient. That’s clear from their offices, it’s one of the major traits separating Heaven and Hell. So they might not check up on you often, beyond lazily sending reminders over electronic media. If you are caught not doing your job, the consequences are dreadful - ‘reprimand’ is a mild word for it - but it doesn’t happen often. Your odds of getting busted for any one thing are very low, so if you’re a renegade demon, you might as well live on the edge and take that chance.Heaven is exactly the opposite. They’re ruthlessly efficient and organized, and you bet they monitor miracles. Aziraphale can’t so much as miracle up a handkerchief to sneeze in without them getting on him about it. That’s why he’s so much more cautious, so hesitant, always so wary of pushing boundaries. His consequences may be, at least on the surface, milder, but he is MUCH more likely to have to face them. And they add up. Beyond the notes, there are warnings, and beyond the warnings there are threats, and beyond the threats… well, Hell got their ideas from somewhere, didn’t they?@mage-cat​ reply: In short, in Good Omens the conflict between Heaven and Hell is not Good versus Evil, but rather Order verses Chaos, and the work makes a brilliant case about why you don’t want to be at either end of the spectrum.@whetstonefires​ reply: Heaven was deliberately kept absent in the book, when the whole thing was a Cold War analogy where they were Britain-NATO and Hell was the Soviet Union–two organizations that were not really particularly different at a deep level, i.e. you needed real expertise to tell their armies apart, and which tended not to really care about the things that are important to people, and which were quite likely to wind up obliterating life on Earth in a stupid shoving competition.Hell was semi-present and explicitly awful; Heaven didn’t care about the right things but they cared about doing things the right way, and weren’t deliberately cruel. Just unfeeling. The narrative shared Aziraphale’s disinclination to be really critical.Heaven is the thing that therefore got the most new building-up and updating to the current political climate, in the miniseries, as it became a central player. Its identity didn’t necessarily change, but what Gaiman was trying to say about it sure did.Visually, they went with the effect of Heaven as the upper reaches of a skyscraper and Hell as its mouldering horrible basement, but the structural impression is of Heaven as the government and Hell as organized crime.While the latter is a lot more likely to just come around and fuck you up, and to make sure their employees are scared of their capacity violence on an immediate level, the former is much, much more powerful, their reach is longer and they and know a lot more. Their scary goes a lot further. Good Omens the book had one foot in the nuclear age and one foot in the information age, but it’s been 30 years.@winterbirb​ reply: Everyone in the notes is using this as n example of Gabriel and using an intimidation technique, which makes sense from a Watsonian perspective (even though I don’t subscribe to it), but I’d like to bring up an important Doylist (aka writer/producer decision) point:This actually separates Gabriel from some of the biblical atrocities assigned to him, especially Sodom and Gomorrah, which in biblical mythology had Gabriel do the smiting et cetera.So from a production standpoint, having Sandalphon in this scene isn’t (Doylistically) to intimidate Aziraphale with Gabriel as the aggressor, but instead to reinforce the image of Gabriel as the “company man” while Sandalphon is the one who actually enjoys being cruel.I’d like to reference the 2006 US paperback edition, where after Crowley describes most demons akin to tax inspectors, he goes on to say“…If it came to that, most angels weren’t paragons of virtue; Crowley had met one or two who, when it came to righteously smiting the ungodly, smote a good deal harder than strictly necessary. On the whole, everyone had a job to do, and just did it.“And on the other hand, you got people like Ligur and Hastur, who took such a dark delight in unpleasantness you might have even mistaken them for human.” (p. 253 para. 1-2)Gabriel and Sandalphon pretty neatly exemplify the difference between these two attitudes. Especially when you consider that the producers did not have to change who smote Sodom and Gomorrah, Sandalphon’s purpose is to be that unnamed angel that takes way too much joy in smiting (see his face in the 2nd and 4th panels), which serves as a foil for Gabriel who represents the prevailing attitude of “just has a job to do,” like the tax inspector.Tl;dr: This wasn’t done to make Gabriel maliciously evil, it was a production choice where they included both Gabriel and Sandalphon in the same scene so that the audience would a. See an angel described in the book as “[smiting] a good deal harder than strictly necessary” and b. Have it be made clear that contrary to what biblical mythology might suggest, this angel is not Gabriel.@morelifeangel​ reply: I think it goes even beyond that.  I think Gabriel certainly had a sense that Aziraphale had gotten (from his point of view) too comfortable with the humans, but beyond that, I get the impression that he likes intimidating Aziraphale simply for the fun of it.  While Sandalphon seems like a petty thug, he’s at least obvious in what he is.Gabriel is more like the sort of person who can do horrible things at his job and actively enjoy it, and then go around to enjoy a nice meal with his wife and children.  The sort people say, “He could never do something like that, he’s such a good guy!”After all, he’s on God’s side, so anything he does is clearly right, isn’t it?@fuckyeahisawthat​ reply: There’s a lot of great takes on this scene in the reblogs already, but yeah… Gabriel may be oblivious about many human things (not because he’s dumb but because he just doesn’t care) but he’s not stupid.As for whether he has any idea what’s going on between Aziraphale and Crowley…personally, I don’t think he has the imagination for that. But he’s a bully, so making people uncomfortable is fun, and Aziraphale’s a soft target cause clearly he’s seen as The Weird One among angels.Right after this scene, there’s a parallel scene with Crowley, where Hastur and Ligur talk to him through the TV. The thing about both these scenes is that Aziraphale and Crowley’s respective higher-ups and lower-downs don’t really deliver any new information to them. In both cases, the sole purpose of these “HEY just checking in!!” visits is intimidation. It’s to remind them, Shit’s about to get real on Earth and we’re watching you. Don’t fuck this up.Of course, we the audience know that they have already, most definitely, fucked this up. And the characters, in the scenes immediately preceding this at the end of episode 1, have just confirmed for themselves that yes, they have indeed fucked this up. And here come their bosses to make sure they haven’t forgotten exactly what the stakes are. As usual, Heaven and Hell are doing the exact same thing; Heaven’s just doing it with a smile on their faces.@not-a-fucking-pogo-stick​ reply: Also with the turning people into salt bit. It’s both the more clear homophobic threat and a reference to the death of the only person who looked back towards those condemned, Lot’s wife, who was turned into a pillar of salt. Definitely calls to mind the close association of Aziraphale to one of the damned ie Crowley, who he could be considered to have looked back towards after the fall by not dismissing him as the other angels seem to have done the other demons.@rocket-pool​ reply: Yes to all this, except maybe Gabriel knowing what was up before Michael pulls out the intelligence network. He makes a point of calling him Azira-FAIL (whereas Crowley calls him Azira-FELL, something Gaiman has confirmed was done purposefully). I think he’s just a bully, going straight back to Aziraphale “failing” to prevent the temptation of Eve.Of course, if Michael suspected - and they are very obviously the intelligence officer, with the backchannels - they could have been stoking Gabriel’s dislike. That would lead to this more… Careful treatment. Especially if you hold to Crowley only just leaving, Michael might have been trying to catch Aziraphale in the act…@loptsvinr reply: Pretty sure dealing with angels is why Aziraphale is so good at lying. The angels are a very organised/lawful gang, whereas the demons are more of a chaotic evil mess. The demons couldn’t even make sure the Baby Switch Plan would be executed perfectly, whereas if the angels were given that task they would constantly be watching over everything.@livebloggingmydescentintomadness​  reply: i feel like it also really deserves pointing out that Gabriel very specifically brought the angel who carried out the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah to intimidate Aziraphale, The Queer Angel.now, in actuality, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was not about homosexuality (Ezekiel 16:49–50: “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me.“) but it’s pretty damn ingrained in the public consciousness that it was “a gay thing” to the point where anal sex is called sodomy. it’s too deliberately mentioned to be an accident. Gabriel brought the angel who (we all have been led to believe) slaughtered queers to intimidate Aziraphale. that’s why Aziraphale looks so uncomfortable.@ineffabilum​ reply: Ugh, this makes my heart hurt. How awful to be threatened by the good guys, to be trapped in a room and think, well, it’s a good thing I didn’t Fall. It’s no wonder Aziraphale is always telling Crowley, “Yes, but you’re a demon.” If this is what Heaven’s like, what kindness could he possibly expect from Hell? #of course he does trust crowley #but every once in a while that defense mechanism kicks back in: #don’t laugh until they laugh don’t let your guard down don’t show your hand first #locate the exits be polite feign ignorance smile but not like that not too wide #it’s hard to let someone in when you’re waiting for the other shoe to fall@thesourthernpansy​ reply: And to go on from that point, it so very clear that Aziraphale doesn’t agree with Sandalphon’s methods, remembering him and slightly changing key in his voice to ‘I dont like what you do, but technically we’re all doing it for the same thing, so I’ll put up with you cos my boss is right there’. And that’s it!@falloutboyrocksmysocks​ reply: Oh I like this! And I’m loving the fact that there is still so much of this show left to talk about like this and analyse!For me the way that Sandalphon was positioned at Aziraphale’s back, while Gabriel positioned himself in front of Aziraphale, made me think. In the Bible during the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot, who the 2 angels that were sent as emissaries to visit, and lodged and ate with, and Lot’s wife, were told to flee the city after God commanded it to be destroyed due to the sins committed there.The 2 angels told Lot, Lot’s wife and a few others to leave and commanded them “look not behind thee”, to not look back at the destruction, but Lot’s wife did and she was turned to a pillar of salt.Remembering that, I couldn’t help thinking of why Gabriel brought Sandalphon, but when he mentioned Sodom and Gomorrah, and that Sandalphon was partly responsible, it made me think even more about how he was positioned in regards to Aziraphale, and the decision made to position them that way.It made Aziraphale have to look back at Sandalphon to talk to him.Maybe I’m reading too much into that, but seeing as this is a show that always has a reason for literally everything that happens in it, I thought it was very interesting.@katy-133​ reply: Can we talk about how in the book, Crowley went to Gomorrah?I’m just picturing Crowley and Aziraphale separately visiting the place at some point, quite enjoying the food, not knowing the other was there. And then both of them leaving just before Sandalphon arrived, saw what was happening, and decided that it had to go.@aura218fandomnet​ reply: it’s a threat to crowley too. we know what you’ve been up to, we know with whom, we know you know we know, and if you play along, we don’t have to mention this. as long as you behave, we can keep up this shared fake ignorance of your greatest sin and everything is the status quo for a little bit longer. but WE are in control of how long that status quo lasts and we can take that feeling of safety away from you and from your lover.@220-221b-whateverittakes reply: Can we also talk about the choice of Sandalphon as the heavy in particular? We know Az is super gay coded, and his narrative is a pretty blatant coming out story. But Sandalphon, of all the other angels, shares that coding. And how does Az know him? Sodom and Freaking Gomorrah. The biblical story most often used to persecute the Gays ever since King James decided to put his spin on the Vulgate. To me it reads as a threat like, “We know what you are, and either you turn against it like Sandalphon, or Sandalphon turns your gay ass into salt.” Sandalphon strikes me as the perfect archetype of the ex-gay/closeted-gay that works out their shit by persecuting their own. If you told me he was in charge of Heaven’s version of Exodus International for naughty angels needing reeducation to avoid Falling, it would completely track.@ffxplayer​ reply: In the interview for the TV Companion(which is amazing, you should read it if you love Good Omens, I borrowed my copy from library)the actor who plays Gabriel(someone help me out here I’m too lazy to google right now)said he was going for American CEO, same kind of power play. And it definitely comes through in this scene. Intimidation through mind games is totally Gabriel’s scene. Like I don’t for a second think he’s stupid. I wouldn’t love to loathe him if he was stupid. He’s very very clever at what he does, and has zero fucks to give about whether this might make him evil. His sense of right and wrong is his own belief in what HE thinks is right. Scary concept.@eretriaelessedils​ reply: It seems others have beaten me to making this point but I saw this on ig first and wanted to contribute- the traditional interpretation for the reason the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed was widespread homosexual activities of the inhabitants, and if Sandalphon was the one who killed nearly all the inhabitants of two whole cities for being gay it seems like a very deliberate choice for Gabriel to bring him. Especially alongside other angels seeming to threaten aziraphale in terms of homosexuality with Uriel goading Aziraphale with “your boyfriend with the dark glasses”, and Uriel being the angel of chasity could indicate another threat had the relationship she implied between Crowley and Aziraphale been sexual- and then Uriel being the one to most strongly threaten him physically (at least before he was sentenced to death) in pushing him against the wall does seem imply further violence. Overall I cant help but think there was somewhat of an implication that Heaven thought the relationship between Aziraphale and Crowley did verge into romantic and were prepared to threaten and punish Aziraphale for it if he stepped out of line.@betweensleepinganddreaming​ reply: I’m utterly convinced that Gabriel bringing Crowley up in the sushi restaurant was a threat.“It’s a miracle he’s never noticed you.” Gabriel’s not an idiot, he knows there’s no way Crowley doesn’t know about Aziraphale. Aziraphale is hiding something from him, but there’s no proof.The pause there, examining Aziraphales reaction.“But that’s what we do.” A reminder, you’re an angel, one of mine, don’t forget what team you belong to.A threat, all of it.@grrlcookery​ reply: The demons in GO? They’re evil, but they do damage like a snake or a cat would. Theyre following their nature with no shame or apology. The angels? They’re terrifying. They’re pretending to hold the moral high ground. They’re behaving as though they have a right to choose their actions, whereas the demons simply act. I’d rather meet a GO demon than an angel, any day. -- source link

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