irritablevowel:luna-whiskers:afandomfarfaraway:luna-whiskers:odamakistar:ainomessage:luna-whiskers:I

irritablevowel:luna-whiskers:afandomfarfaraway:luna-whiskers:odamakistar:ainomessage:luna-whiskers:I hate to interrupt this liveblog with a discussion about translations, but I just can’t use this page from Miss Dream, and I can’t in good conscience skip over it without comment. What this page is supposed to be, is Mina teasing Artemis for having a woman’s name. For some reason, the translator chose to use a homophobic slur here. Not only is it questionable that the original Japanese dialogue would be remotely that strong in a children’s comic, but as an insult, it does not actually make sense. Why would Mina call Artemis gay when something like cross-dresser or drag queen or even just “girly” would make more sense and be significantly less offensive?(And yeah, perhaps the page itself is pretty heteronormative, but I’d rather have a conversation about that with some nuance about gender expectations in 1990s Japan than have Sailor Moon characters casually throwing slurs around.)I’m sure there was no malicious intent here, and this isn’t the only translator who I’ve felt has treated this page poorly. I recall another translation that used a transphobic slur instead, which is not remotely better. This scanlation is now several years old, and many of the current translators over at Miss Dream had nothing to do with it, so this is not a callout and I don’t want it to be treated as one. I just don’t want fans reading this for the first time to have this be their first exposure to Sailor V, and think this is representative. The word used in the original Japanese (in both speech bubbles) is “Okama.” This is a catch-all slang term for effeminate gay men, drag queens, and trans women. It’s not a nice word. I think the word used in the Miss Dream translation (the f-word), is an appropriate translation… for 1993. Here in the US at least, I was still hearing that word casually thrown around as a joke about gay men or any man who appeared feminine in the 90s (which is how okama is often used in Japan). People knew it wasn’t nice (and Minako certainly isn’t being kind here), but as a society we hadn’t gotten to where we are today, where it’s totally socially unacceptable. Perhaps the translator chose that word because they were trying to stay true to the time period of the story?Though the Japanese text hasn’t changed in any of the revised editions (and Japan is still not as progressive as the west when it comes to gender expression, gender identity, and sexuality - or at least, the conversations they’re having are different), I would argue that the English translation should change with cultural norms in the West. I don’t like the translation “cross-dresser,” because it just doesn’t make any sense. Artemis doesn’t wear clothes and Minako is making fun of his “girly” name, not anything about his appearance. If I was translating in 2011 when the reprint came out, I might have used “That’s rich coming from you, homo-cat” “Homo!?” (Not kind, but not as jarring of a slur) and as of the Perfect Edition I might even go so far as to use “That’s rich coming from a girly cat like you!” “Girly!?” (Still true to the gender stereotyping but not as straight up insulting.)Oooh, I had a vague memory that it was okama, but I didn’t want to bring it up unless i’d remembered wrong. Yeah, absolutely what ainomessage has said. Okama’s a really awkward word to translate into English; it covers a few different things and while it’s not -nice- it carries a different history to f—–t and has a different ‘feel’, i guess? Like the f-word really hones in on male homosexuality as it’s core focus of derision/attack, but okama is more slanted towards ridiculing being feminine when (in the perspective of people who use the word) you aren’t a woman. Mina is definitely being rude, but I’m not sure even ‘homo’ really fits what her intention is here. ‘Girly’’s probably about the best. I can’t think of anything else that works. Thank you both for the explanation and context. It helps to know the thought process that went into this.From what I gather, the term okama is nebulous and has a complicated history, which is not unlike most LGBT words in English, really. My brief Google search took me to discussions between Japanese academics over whether the term has been or should be reclaimed, which sounds eerily similar to a lot of current LGBT discourse on Tumblr. Of course there are going to be connotations that don’t easily translate, because slurs are essentially nonsensical and grow out of specific social climates, and different people reclaim terms for different reasons and under different conditions.All that said, just because something can be translated as a slur doesn’t mean it should be, unless it very clearly and deliberately was meant to be equally offensive in the original language. There’s not being nice, and then there’s being homophobic. And even if real 13-year-olds might have thrown those words around in 1992, I can’t imagine a manga targeting that age group and much younger would have included language with that equal level of offensiveness.Thanks for the info on this one! Has bothered me before. In Sera Myu Starlights Ryuusei Densetsu Chibi-Usa calls a grown man (Nephrite in disguise) something like that too. I can’t find the scene right now and don’t remember the Japanese word, but it was translated as “transvestite”. He’s absolutely scandalized and gets very angry at her - but no one else is. Not a single person on a crowded stage tells her not to use that kind of word, and I remember being angry at everyone involved in this, the fictional characters as well as anyone in charge of putting it on stage and making a little girl say it. They present it as a joke, but in a way that frames it as an okay thing to do. But is it? I find it hard to believe that kids in Japan (girls in particular) wouldn’t get in trouble for using slurs. Even if it’s just what the director thought was funny and wouldn’t fly in real life - still weird to do this in front of an audience full of kids. Oh wow. I know the scene you’re talking about, and I went back to check whether Chibi Chibi says okama there, and she indeed does. And, Miss Dream again translated it as the same slur (I’m guessing it was Sea of Serenity that chose to use transvestite instead, which really isn’t great either).It’s supposed to be a joke. Chibi Chibi repeats back every question she’s asked, but when Nephrite tries to tease her by asking, “are you a parrot?” she whips her head up and asks, “are you okama?” Nephrite doesn’t take it well. The audience laughs. Mamoru has to talk Nephrite down from losing it at a small child.Here’s the thing, though. This is something that everybody involved with the production had to be aware of. Nephrite was played by Karen Yoda, a trans woman. Karen Yoda was not, at the time of this musical, officially out, but before she played Nephrite, she played Petz.Everybody had to know what they were doing when they called Karen an okama to her face. The fact that it’s specifically her that the joke was used against (and not, say, one of the other women playing the Shitennou, such as the former Sailor Neptune playing a very feminine Jadeite) had to be deliberate. I can’t see her being okay with this, or the rest of the cast being okay with this, if she considered the word that offensive. Again, to me this points to the word being ambiguous in terms of when it is considered a slur and the degree of offensiveness. Maybe the joke was tasteless, maybe it shouldn’t have been used at all, but if a small child is shouting it in a theater full of other small children, can it possibly be considered the same as f**?At this point I almost wonder if fairy is a better translation. Because a child just casually saying f**? That is so beyond the pale and unacceptable. No matter what, I think it’s clear that Miss Dream needs to address this. If we were British I think the word we’d want is “luvvie”, but since that wouldn’t be well understood outside the UK it might not be the best choice. A better translation for the jokes might not fix some of the things that are questionable about them, but I agree that f** is WAY too strong a word given the context and usage. -- source link
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